Comments on The Mormon Anomaly: Artistic Leadership

Also, It was a google search on the subject of th...

2009-05-05T05:24:00.000-04:00

Also,

It was a google search on the subject of the word of wisdom that led me here, and I found my ears perked up years back when I heard President Hinckley state that we (LDS people) didn't live the Word of Wisdom in its fulness or entirety. He then said that he "wish[ed] that we did."

I then asked myself, what is it that most don't live? Clearly poor choices in food intake and too much meat was all too clear. The epitome of bad food (great tasting in some cases, but never healthful) is ironically at ward functions. In my last ward of single adults, most of whom were well educated and informed on the subject, they too laughed at this fact and numerous of them abstained from eating the "sugar junk" food on "Break the Fast" days. However, with their influence at times, being large in number, they influenced a better option in food by what they brought for others to consume.

My grandfather refused to eat pork because of this statement of Brigham Young:

"If the people were willing to receive the true knowledge from Heaven, they would cease to eating swine's flesh. I know it as well as Moses knew it and I don't need a code of commandments to put it in."

I need to get the source for this, but have known that some statement akin to this was known by my grandfather, who though a man who raised livestock and has sons who are ranchers, they all actually eat meat most sparingly.

Boyd K. Packer had some of his wooden bird carving...

2009-05-05T04:52:00.000-04:00

Boyd K. Packer had some of his wooden bird carvings in a show at the Monte L. Bean Life Museum a few years back, which is of interest.

Then, I took note of President Eyring speaking of his wood carving hobby within the last 3 years, probably in one of the press conferences when the 1st Presidency was reorganized. I thought I'd add those snippets there.

Make sure you all get a hold of Spencer W. Kimball's words delivered at BYU, and published in a book "Educating Zion" under the chapter titled: "Climbing the Hills Just Ahead"

http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=5&ProdID=28

I bought a copy at Deseret Industries, and then purchased a second for an uncle. What a stunning, inspiring, unprecedented series of discourses on the arts and sciences is addressed by Spencer W. Kimball.

A few snippets from some different sources:

BYU Professor of Ancient Scripture, Jeffery Marsh, states:

Where are our great writers? Where are our stellar actors and actresses? Where are our great artists and advertisers? Where are the musicians who will master what might possibly be the most powerful tool of communication ever revealed? Where are our computer programmers whose creativity will instruct as well as inspire? Have all the great artisans already come and gone? No, they are sitting in our classes! We believe the greatest contributions have yet to be made! Elder Orson F. Whitney has noted: “We shall yet have Miltons and Shakespeares of our own. God’s ammunition is not exhausted. His brightest spirits are held in reserve for the latter times. In God’s name and by his help we will build up a literature whose top shall touch heaven, though its foundations may now be low in earth.” [1]

John Taylor stated:

“We must not forget that we owe a duty to the world. The Lord has given us the light of eternity; and we are commanded not to conceal our light under a bushel....We want men [and women] full of the Holy Ghost and the power of God that they may, go forth...bearing precious seed and sowing the seeds of eternal life, and then returning with gladness, bringing their sheaves with them.” (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 21:375.)

President Spencer W. Kimball has said,

“Let us get our instruments tightly strung and our melodies sweetly sung. Let us not die with our music still in us. Let us rather use this precious mortal probation to move confidently and gloriously upward toward the eternal life which God our Father gives to those who keep His commandments.” (From a program honoring President Kimball on his eightieth birthday. March 28, 1975; cited in Barbara B. Smith et al., A Woman’s Choices: The Relief Society Legacy Lectures [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984], 97.)

Also, speaking of educating and inspiring, Spencer W. Kimball also made this plea:

“We must train statesmen, not demagogues; men of integrity not weaklings who for a mess of pottage will sell their birthright.” (Spencer W. Kimball at BYU, Oct. 10, 75)

am intrigued however at looking at the "divine" design and blessing of the Lord in giving us technology and even blessing the "gentiles" to bring forth what they have in terms of the power in cinema. I find it interesting to see and find connections to the church in all of this history of movie making through less than a century of time. I wonder, where will it all lead? Spencer W. Kimball wondered when the Latter-day Saints would use these tools to really dazzle and inspire, to "produce a masterpiece which would live forever," I too wonder. I wish I could be a part of some aspect of it. He said:

"The story of Mormonism has never yet been written nor painted nor sculptured nor spoken. It remains for inspired hearts and talented fingers yet to reveal themselves. They must be faithful, inspired, active Church members to give life and feeling and true perspective to a subject so worthy. Such masterpieces should run for months in every movie theater, cover every part of the globe in the tongue of the people, written by great artists, purified by the best critics.

"Our writers, our motion picture specialists, with the inspiration of heaven, should tomorrow be able to produce a masterpiece which would live forever. Our own talent, obsessed with dynamism from a cause, could put into such a story life, heartbeats, emotions, love, pathos, drama, suffering, fear, and courage. In such literature, the great leader--the mighty modern Moses who led a people farther than from Egypt to Jericho, who knew miracles as great as the stream from the rock at Horeb, manna in the desert, giant grapes, rain when needed, battles won against great odds--the great miracle prophet, the founder of this university, would never die.

"Take a Nicodemus and put Joseph Smith's spirit in him, and what do you have? Take a da Vinci or a Michelangelo or a Shakespeare and give him a total knowledge of the plan of salvation of God and personal revelation and cleanse him, and then take a look at the statues he will carve and the murals he will paint and the masterpieces he will produce. Take a Handel with his purposeful effort, his superb talent, his earnest desire to properly depict the story, and give him inward vision of the whole true story and revelation, and what a master you have!" (President Spencer W. Kimball, "Education for Eternity," at the BYU Centennial Convocation, October 10, 1975.)

He also quoted John Taylor saying:

"In our world, there have risen brilliant stars in drama, music, literature, sculpture, painting, science, and all the graces. For long years, I have had a vision of the BYU greatly increasing its already strong position of excellence till the eyes of all the world will be upon us.

"President John Taylor so prophesied, as he emphasized his words with this directive: "You will see the day that Zion will be far ahead of the outside world in everything pertaining to learning of every kind as we are today in regard to religious matters. You mark my words, and write them down, and see if they do not come to pass."8 He further declared: "God expects Zion to become the praise and glory of the whole earth, so that kings, hearing of her fame, will come and gaze upon her glory."9 With regard to masters, surely there must be many Wagners in the BYU, approaching him or yet to come in the tomorrows--young people with love of art, talent supreme, and eagerness to create. I hope we at BYU may produce men greater than this German composer, Wagner, but less eccentric, more spiritual.

"Who of us has not sat spellbound with Aida, Il Trovatore, or other of the masterpieces of Verdi? Can there never be another Verdi or his superiors? Could we not find and develop a Bach, to whom some say music, especially organ and choral music, owes almost as much as a religion does to its founder.

"Is there anyone here who has not been stirred by the rich, melodic voice of Enrico Caruso, the Italian-born operatic tenor? Surely there have been few voices which have inspired so many. Considered to be the greatest voice of his century by many, year after year, he was the chief attraction at the Metropolitan Opera." (Spencer W. Kimball, quoted from "Educating Zion.")

I rejoice in what lies ahead of us in our having our own Milton’s and Shakespears. I can’t wait to find Latter-day Saints bringing to Cinema great and tremendous themes from the Book of Mormon. I too have to ask what talents I might develop to bring to that table and make sure I’m not hiding them under a bushel.

Anonymous, here are some scattered responses to th...

2009-03-17T16:00:00.000-04:00

Anonymous, here are some scattered responses to the comments and misconceptions I can derive from your comment. Also, just as you asked of me, try to keep an open mind, because as a writer of this site, I am deeply committed to edification and clarification. I decided to post the comment here so as to respond to your above comment, though as Mark indicates, it probably belongs under Meat and Mormonism.

Pescetarian: Pescetarianism/Pescoveganism is in no way a made-up term created by me (I don't mention it in any of my articles) or by any writer on this site. Pescetarianism is based mostly on the simple diet found in the Mediterranean, and though they didn't coin the term themselves, this diet predates any living person by hundreds of years. You can find a wiki article easily enough at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarian. In addition, though pescetarianism is hardly ever considered a vegetarian diet, it remains one of the healthiest diets. It provides concentrated and unprocessed omega-3 fatty acids and simple proteins, without all the detriments of dairy, red meat, or white meat. It also is in many ways more economical and more practical than beginning a fully vegan diet. So, I apologize for a more scientific than religious response to your statement, but I feel it necessary to assuage your concerns that our comments are nothing more than 'oxymoronic and fictitious' espousals. In the end, criticizing us for eating this way is now moot, as all those who were once pescovegan/pescetarian have graduated to straight veganism.

Revelation in regards to eating habits: I suggest you read I Can't: A Response to Meat and Mormonism, because as I say there, 'Agency, after all, is everyone’s God-given right, but with that amazing gift comes our responsibility to search out and understand truth.' Guilting someone to follow our beliefs is contradictory both in the concept of personal agency, as well as our expectations for people to find these things out themselves (both spiritually and scientifically). And yes, people can receive revelation on this topic. Being taught so repetitiously that God will help us in all of our problems and concerns, why would he remove himself from this topic? DC 84:88 explains that God 'will be on your right hand and on your left,' helping us wherever he can. In this way, I fully believe that he has helped me make this life-changing decision, but above everything else, it is necessary for each individual to interpret, determine, and act upon their own convictions and beliefs.

Motives: To me, my religious conviction is but one of seven or eight reasons to be vegan, but the LDS church being the broad focus of this forum, we decided to approach from that angle. More so, just as I served a mission to help people grow closer to their Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ through spiritual growth, I explain my eating habits hoping to help people grow closer to God and Christ through better maintenance of their bodies - gifts that have been bestowed upon us. As much as I would love to believe that Latter-Day Saints adhere closely to the Word of Wisdom, based on a BYU study cited by MSNBC news (found here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/) the average Utah Mormon weighs 4.6 pounds more than the average Utah non-Mormon and is 14% more likely to be obese. Though these figures are limited to Utah, I whole-heartedly believe that every member throughout the world has the ability to improve their lives and grow closer to our Savior and Heavenly father through being more conscious of how we take care of our bodies.

Moderation (in religious terms): Thank you for bringing up the oft-used 'Moderation in all things' quote as it has always bothered me (especially in regards to alcohol, tobacco, coffee/caffeine, and other narcotics), and in researching it for this response, I feel I now truly understand it. It was almost impossible to find the primary source of this quote as it has since become nothing more than a misused adage of Mormon culture, but I believe it was first mentioned in an LDS context by Joseph F. Smith in 1903. The quote reads, 'We may make evil of all amusements, but the Saints should not be unwise, but rather understand what the will of the Lord is, and practice moderation in all things.' With this small phrase, we begin to see that our modern application of this quote is incorrect. The quote continues, 'They should avoid excesses and cease from sin, putting far from them "the lusts of men;" and in their amusements and pastimes adopt a course that looks to the spirit as well as the letter, the intention and not the act alone, the whole and not the part, which is the meaning of moderation. Let your moderation be known unto all men' ("Improvement Era," Vol. 6, p. 857, Sept., 1903). It is apparent after reading this, that the meaning of moderation here is not a middle road approach, but rather Joseph F. Smith is exhorting us to moderate our actions. To further explain, Dallin H. Oaks tells us 'the Savior said that if we are "lukewarm," he "will spue [us] out of [his] mouth" (Rev. 3:16). Moderation [in the common usage of the term] in all things is not a virtue, because it would seem to justify moderation in commitment. That is not moderation, but indifference. That kind of moderation runs counter to the divine commands to serve with all of our "heart, might, mind and strength" (D&C 4:2), to "seek... earnestly the riches of eternity" (D&C 68:31), and to be "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79). Moderation is not the answer' ("Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall," "Ensign," Oct. 1994, p. 19). To be moderate in modern usage is completely different from the act of moderating ourselves. So by all means, moderate everything you eat.

Moderation (in scientific terms): When it comes to eating dairy and meat, consuming a smaller amount has shown little difference from larger consumption (eating meat/dairy 2 to 3 days a week as compared to 6 or 7) in regards to obesity, cardiovascular disease, and cancer, etc. From specific research cited in Vesanto Melina's (M.S., R.D.) book, Becoming Vegan, complete negation of dairy and meat from one's diet reduces the chances of varying forms of cancer by 20 to 90% (depending on which cancer). It has also shown to lower the chances of heart disease by 57% and a stroke by 30%. Another study showed that after only 12 days of completely avoiding all animal products, a test group showed an average 11% decrease of total cholesterol and 6% drop in blood pressure. Those seem like incredibly promising figures to me, and anything (within the mandates of the gospel) I can do to make my life a healthier, longer, more enjoyable, and fruitful (no pun intended) life, I will do. One last figure to emphasize that the not-too-much-not-too-little approach is flawed regarding meat and dairy eating habits comes from a study completed in 1999 by Caldwell Esselstyn. In the 8 years previous to the study 11 participants experienced a total of 48 cardiac events, citing no specific or notable eating habits. Over the course of the 12 year study, the same 11 participants ate according to a strict vegan diet and took cholesterol-lowering medication. The results showed that 70% of the participants showed complete reversal of cardiovascular disease and the only participant that experienced a subsequent cardiac event was characterized as a 'non-compliant participant.' From the specifics we can infer that he maintained adherence to the medication and that the only correlating factor is his refusal to practice a vegan diet. Clearly, as we can see in this example, riding the middle ground is anything but beneficial. Personally, I have full intention of continuing my eating habits, regardless of how extreme they may seem to the uninformed. I have no intention of becoming a non-compliant cardiac event.

I hope these responses have exhausted your specific concerns and that you keep an open mind as you question topics within the gospel. Answers hardly ever precede the question, and the questions are asked far less than they should be. Above all, please find these things out for yourself through study (scriptural and secular), faith, and personal revelation.

In response to Anonymous above: I am confused as t...

2009-03-16T00:27:00.000-04:00

In response to Anonymous above:

I am confused as to why you have posted this comment here. The article above regards artists and leaders within the church. It has nothing to do with vegetarianism. One can only guess what you're responding to, which makes it difficult to understand where you are coming from.

Are you responding to Dean's article titled, "I Can't: A Response to Meat and Mormonism Part I"? You can't possibly be, since Dean never mentions the word "pesco-vegan" in his essay. Are you maybe responding to the article written by myself (Mark, not Dean) titled, Meat and Mormonism Part I: Insulated Consciences, Cultured Behavior"? Please clarify.

I'm not going to respond to your points, since they are addressed to Dean (albeit, I think, mistakenly). I will let him respond in detail. However, I would like to say something about the way in which you have expressed your thoughts.

Attempting to condition Dean's response to your thoughts by saying, "Please try to keep an open mind regarding my statement" does not give you free license to proceed in an insulting manner. Calling Dean "very small minded and selfish," and accusing him of attempting to "'guilt' people into" the same way of thinking as him is not a responsible way to express disagreement, if your aim is mutual edification.

Nor is it very fair to expect any rational person to excuse your "grammar issues and the like" while you make a baseless accusation that Dean is making up words, implicitly accusing him of being deceitful.

In addition, your comment that, "the reason that people defend thier believes regarding thier own diet choices is because it was none of your business in the first place!" is just simply not cool. Please. We are not creating this site to butt ourselves into peoples' lives. The purpose of this site is to present our thoughts for your consideration in the hope that one or two souls will be profited thereby; whether through our words, the words people comment in response, or through unwritten words, it does not matter. It was your choice to read the article(s) that elicited your response. No one forced our thoughts into "your business."

I honestly do try to give people the benefit of the doubt when reading their written words - God knows how many different interpretations can be pulled from one's writing. Yet it is hard to swallow slight after seeming slight and remain faithfully engaged in conversation.

If you decide to further respond, please - just be cool. Relying on the power of insults only reveals a weakness in your power of rhetoric.

Dean, I'm looking forward to your reply.

Dean, Let me attempt to provide a different perspe...

2009-03-14T19:36:00.000-04:00

Dean,
Let me attempt to provide a different perspective. Please try to keep an open mind regarding my statement. Also please excuse grammar issues and the like, as i am writing this as "a stream of conciseness."
First: I don't understand the reasoning behind presenting your pesco-vegan (an oxymoronic term i think you made up) diet choices as some kind of revelation given to you by god. I think it is very small minded and selfish way to present material, as I believe it is just a devise to "guilt" people into the same choice. Sure, I understand that this would never be a conscience act of any sane person - as to guilt someone into a similar lifestyle - but I suggest looking at your motives? why have you chosen to present your research in this way? Yes, these are probably diet choices that would benefit a person, but have you not heard of moderation in all things? Seriously! I believe the reason that people defend thier believes regarding thier own diet choices is because it was none of your business in the first place!

HOWEVER! I do appreciate a rational(ish) discussion regarding concerns of the church. As someone who grew up in utah, questioning church doctrine was never supported.
I'll stay tuned!

Thanks!

This is something I have been wondering also, so i...

2008-10-28T19:50:00.000-04:00

This is something I have been wondering also, so it's great to finally read someone else's thoughts on this. Thanks.

I'm sure I hardly need to say that my comments sho...

2008-10-28T18:57:00.000-04:00

I'm sure I hardly need to say that my comments should not be construed to discount your honest and candid thoughts (bravo, by the way!). On the contrary, I want to thank you for raising this issue - it continues to perplex me.

What is it about apostleship that I think would be better if there were an artist acting in that role? I think that my frustrations about the professions of church leaders come from a perception (and a widespread one) that leadership roles are a metric for spirituality or spiritual standing or spiritual progression. I may think that being an Apostle is not in the cards for me, but maybe I want to think that someone LIKE ME could potentially become an Apostle - at least I don't want to think that my profession is somehow keeping me from progressing and thus out of leadership roles. My logical fallacy lies in (probably unwittingly) relating spiritual progress to church leadership on some level. I know we all know as matter of doctrine that holding a leadership position does not mean you're more righteous than someone who doesn't - we know it as a principle - but I think that "leadership = more righteous" is really at the heart of the discussion in this post.

Church leaders don't have to be artists - they're leaders - which does not, by itself, make them more spiritual than me or anyone else. They have a function to fulfill that, in my mind at least, has no colloration to artistic inclination. Maybe it comes down to this: some people got global religious organization leadership skills (or leadership skill, more generally), and some got to be Stephen Kapp Perry. I didn't get every talent I admire, but then who did?

You can see right away that my thoughts are incomplete - I haven't started into the meat (oh sorry, Mark...), protein of the issue of whether being an artist WOULD in fact add something to the office of apostleship - I've assumed it for the sake of argument, but there is the potential for some more profound exploration of that idea.

Thanks again for the insightful post - I look forward to reading more discussion!

Also - check out the great address by President Kimball in the July 1977 Ensign enitled "The Gospel Vision of the Arts."

Ok Mark, but Dean's article asserted that there we...

2008-10-26T23:38:00.000-04:00

Ok Mark, but Dean's article asserted that there were "no self-proclaimed artists" of any kind among the 12. I think Pres Packer fits in that category, even if he is only an "amateur artist."

Hmm, that's interesting about President Packer. Ne...

2008-10-24T09:27:00.000-04:00

Hmm, that's interesting about President Packer. Never knew. But I think there is a distinction between hobbies and professions. It's curious to think whether he would ever have been chosen as an apostle had he become an artist as he desired rather than being drafted into the military (was he drafted? I'm only assuming...).

KingOfTexas, I remember those Book of Mormon pictures of Ammon, Samuel the Lamanite, etc. They were great. Does anyone know if any Books of Mormon printed with those pictures anymore?

I think you may be unaware of Pres Packer's accomp...

2008-10-23T19:31:00.000-04:00

I think you may be unaware of Pres Packer's accomplishments. Here is an article in the Ensign from a few years ago.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e048d9cbdb01c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

When I was 15 I found a book of mormon. The reason...

2008-10-23T17:32:00.000-04:00

When I was 15 I found a book of mormon. The reason I started reading it was the cool pictures inside. :)

Dean,This is a well thought out article you have w...

2008-10-22T09:29:00.000-04:00

Dean,

This is a well thought out article you have written and I mostly agree with your sentiments. The only point I want to raise is that of sampling bias. Meaning that you probably (I could be wrong) haven't had ample opportunity to sample what the average General Authority is. How many General Authorities have you interacted with? I'm guessing that if you were to spend 10 minutes talking to every member of the Seventy you would be surprised by the level of diversity. This problem of under sampling is painfully obvious in the Quorum of the 12. It would be impossible for the 12 to represent the aggregate demographic of the church. The church is just to diverse. There are thousands of different professions, races, cultures, language, etc. represented in the church and it would be very difficult to find 12 people who represent the church let alone have the knowledge and experience to lead the church. So you can't take the 12 as an accurate representation of what the church is.

You bring up that a lot of members of the church have gone on to do great things in Business and other facets of life, and that these same people go on to form the majority of the leadership of the church. The problem is that a body of 12 million people needs effective and efficient leadership. I am all for diversity among our leadership (I think it would be a very good thing) but the skills of leadership are not easily learned and learning to effectively run a company will probably provide the training and experience needed to let say run a district. I'm not sure that the average artist could gain this same experience through expression of their art.

From the article: "The cold fact is, that a mission president – a springboard for most general authorities – is required to be ‘monetarily secure.’ This means that they must have the financial strength to essentially not work for 3 years, possibly even the rest of their lives. Only the substantially successful could pull this off – something I doubt the stereotypical ‘starving artist’ is capable of. Maybe artists really are consigned to fulfill different roles within the church."

So to finally wrap up my comment... I personally have known several mission presidents who were not financially "stable". I know a man who was called to be a mission president at the age of 32. He had 4 children and was a seminary teacher. I don't know how they survived but somehow they did. I also know a man who is a song writer and has written several popular "mormon" songs (not the stupid cheesy ones, but songs that I would consider to be worthy of addition to the hymnal), he worked with members of the twelve and was a seventy, I think.

Dean I don't think you'll ever be a GA and I don't think I will be either. I don't want to be one though, and I don't think you do either. Its easy to think that the way to have maximum influence over the body of the church is through leadership roles but I totally disagree. Del Parsons has touched many people's lives with his (mostly low quality) art, but his influence has been real.

So yes we are all given different talents and abilities and the Lord needs people with different abilities to lead and build up the kingdom, all in different ways. If the Lord needs you to lead his church he will provide the way for you to lead, but I'm guessing that given your talents the impact you are going to have will be through a completely different medium them leadership.